Additive oscs sound great! ;)

flos · Post by **flos** » 14 May 2007 23:04

Well, I just want to say thank you for these great updates!

I updated the bank with some patches that make use of that nice additive oscillator, really great sounding and easy to use - as usually -, let me know what you think...
Are you planning to add a PD oscillator???

Post by **karmafx** » 15 May 2007 09:56

Dunno...Whats a PD oscillator ?

flos · Post by **flos** » 15 May 2007 14:27

Phase Distortion oscillator...

Post by **karmafx** » 15 May 2007 22:45

ok...you mean the old casio style phase distortion?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis

I wasn't planning on it....
Actually you can make PM/FM sounds but routing a HFO set in FM mode to the phase knob in the Additive generator.

This phase is the "true phase"...not phase init like in Osc and Osc2,
so you get the familiar FM like sound.

But if PD can produce more interesting effects than this, then I'm all ears and open for suggestions ?!

Post by **karmafx** » 15 May 2007 22:50

oh and btw....where can I find your bank ?

...Looking forward to some crispy flos sounds!

flos · Post by **flos** » 15 May 2007 23:17

Ok! Thanks for the tip, I will try to experiment a bit... but it would be more interesting if you could add some waveform to the HFO to get closer to the real PD synthesis, I mean double-sine, reso wavs that were in the Casio synth... I think it's worth to do it!

The bank is here

http://www.4shared.com/file/15945939/77 ... _Bank.html

I have added an Organ patch, redesigned all the brasses, added new pad sounds... hope you'll like it!

ksn · Post by **ksn** » 16 May 2007 08:27

oh yes, please Kasper, PD modules in Karma FX !

Post by **karmafx** » 16 May 2007 12:34

well, if casio still has a patent on the thing(?), that will be a bit of a propblem...

But anyways, I doubt I will have time for this before version 1.0...BUT if you have some sound samples that illustrate the glory of PD, THAT might change my mind

...so please do send samples or interesting links to PD stuff, if you have any. Thanks.

Post by **karmafx** » 16 May 2007 12:54

ok, I found this: http://www.algomusic.net/PDSynthesis.html

I guess _I_could_ add an extra phase distortion editor to the Additive Module (defualt beeing a rising saw)....Would that be good enough or do you need more modulation options ?

Post by **karmafx** » 16 May 2007 13:42

Well...I've read some more on the topic...
http://www.madtheory.com/CZ%20article/CZ%20article.htm
of course PD is not "just" random phase distortion..
so it looks like a separate generator module is needed after all...

flos · Post by **flos** » 16 May 2007 14:30

Seems that I caught your interest...

First, I am quite sure that the basic wavs that were in the CZ-101 are not patented... well not completely sure, but for ex. you can build a PD synth with those wavs using Synthedit so I think you can relax about this matter...
I have found a nice site dedicated to Casio Synths with samples and manuals from those nice pieces of hardware:

http://www.jz-server.de/casiology/manuals_c.html

look under at the end of the page.

flos · Post by **flos** » 16 May 2007 14:40

http://www.cim.mcgill.ca/~clark/nordmod ... html#casio
Contains a Nord Modular emulation of a CZ-101. I don't have a Nord Modular, do you?

Post by **karmafx** » 16 May 2007 14:53

Thanks for the links, flos!!

Nord Modular...yes, actually I've just got my hands on one...

So I'll be sure to check out that patch soon.

Regarding the waveform thing....I'm pretty sure too, that you can use the waveforms...(I mean you can easily construct similar sounding waveforms in the Additive Module)... But the actual phase distortion method might still be patented ...

Post by **karmafx** » 16 May 2007 15:10

I'm curious....what is it *exactly* you like about PD ?

If its "just" for constructing new waveforms easily, by changing the phase increment curve for waveforms, I see this more as an advanced (and versatile) waveform editing tool...(which could be implemented into the Additive module for instance...)

However, if it is the amount modulation control you like, then its a different thing altogether, and needs to be in a separate module I guess...

I'm basically asking, because I don't have a clue what's the cool thing in PD

....I've listened to the samples, and to me, they sound like something you could already squeze out of the synth...but please enlighten me

flos · Post by **flos** » 16 May 2007 15:58

I have recorded a sample using the HFO to modulate the phase... here's the result!

With no modulation applied it sounds like this:

http://www.4shared.com/file/16065222/99 ... no_PD.html

With modulation of the phase:

http://www.4shared.com/file/16065220/77 ... _talk.html

Can you hear the difference?

Ok, seriously I like PD because for me it's an easy way to obtain interesting sounds in a fast way, yes probably if I work on the wavs directly I get the same sound but if I have no idea of what I really want it is only a waste of time! The power of pd is that you have only to choose the wav of the modulator and select the amount of mod., that is the same thing as with your FM module, but you can obtain a different sound!
Hope I have enlightened you...

Post by **karmafx** » 16 May 2007 22:50

nice samples, flos ! I agree, it adds alot!

but phase modulation is one thing (thats what the sample is, right?)...
phase distortion is another...

phase modulation sounds almost identical to frequency modulation.
And since v0.98 you can do both in KarmaFX Synth, but phase "distortion" is another thing. You change the phase increment curve, which means you can bend complex waveforms out of a simple sine. Not just sidebands like in PM/FM.

Anyway, I'm glad we had this little talk. I'll read up on it some more, and test it out....but no PD promises yet.

flos · Post by **flos** » 17 May 2007 11:25

Yes PD is much more complex than PM... I have recorded another sampler using Motion 2.8 by Ugo, just to show the nice sound it can produce...
http://www.4shared.com/file/16122910/f3 ... alk_2.html
But I don't want to force you, I only think PD would be a nice completion of the synth (well there are dozens of synthesis method but this won the challenge of time...).

ksn · Post by **ksn** » 17 May 2007 13:53

yes, i think PD, sonically speaking, just fills the gap between FM and Substractive synthesis
it can sound very digital but also very warm or dirty
it has a little something different that i personnally really like

flos · Post by **flos** » 17 May 2007 19:50

Damn I have a doubt... are you sure that FM and PM signals the same thing? I mean there is correspondence between the two things, for ex. we can switch from a PM signal to a FM signal through integration of the non modulated signal prior to PM... OK, I am tedious but if I am wrong please tell me...
Another thing... in the Organ sample I recorded there are some clips... I found that using two eq modules in parallel (to make a lows-highs audio split) we get that nasty clips on note input... some phase problem???

Post by **karmafx** » 28 May 2007 22:55

Hi Flos!

I've listended to all the patches in your patch bank, and I must say I'm impressed. Some really well crafted patches you've made there! Congrats!

I would love to use some of them in the patch banks distributed with the synth (with your permission of course?!)...

Also, now I'm thinking, opening a special download area for extra banks here on this site, wouldn't be a bad idea.
Let me know if you would be interested in having them hosted here?...

flos · Post by **flos** » 29 May 2007 12:02

Wow, thank you for your nice words Kasper!
You can use the bank as you like (

) and I would be happy if it were hosted on your new site!